Originally Posted by Benno123

I don't think this book is 100% accurate. According to several sources this aired on the January 17, 1970 epislde of The Jackie Gleason Show. Besides this sketch guests on the hour included George Burns, Morey Amsterdam, and Sandy Duncan. At one time Videowack had the first half of this show mentioning the Norton section but that was missing and replaced with a second half from another Gleason show.

Originally Posted by Benno123

If that "dealer" Frank dealt with is the same that I had experiences with, he was a fraud. He never came through on his side of the trade, and while he never told me that he had the Norton episode, we were to trade various other Gleason and TV shows and he never came through with his side of the trade. Then several weeks later shows that I had sent him showed up on iOffer from a guy in Florida. So instead of sending me what he owed, he sold copies of shows that I had sent him from my copies.

Originally Posted by Benno123

My information came from Television Variety Shows: Histories and Episode Guides to 57 Programs by David Inman. This has never steered me wrong in the information it presented, including the January 17, 1970 airdate.

Originally Posted by Bill S.

I know you and Frank had bad experiences with the guy, but I also know of a couple people that did successful trades with him, so I'm not sure what his deal is. We did find out that he had some legal problems around the time he disappeared last year. He had all good feedback on iOffer up until then. The thing is, he wasn't asking Frank for anything all that rare, so I seriously doubt he would have closed up shop over that. Obviously he has some personal issues and he probably ended up screwing people out of what he promised because of that, but I don't see any reason for him to lie about having stuff. If the footage does exist and it is out there, it's a shame it had to land in his hands.


I can't speak on what it says in David Inman's book, but the information that was published in the two newspapers was from the day it was supposed to air. That leaves open the possibility that CBS could have decided not to air it at the last minute. Why else would VIDEOWACK's copy have a portion from another show attached to the George Burns half?

Originally Posted by cloggedmind

The copy I have is a b&w kinescope, and it runs just shy of 46 minutes. The date provided on the dvdr menu claims it is from 12-11-69 which is not the case. The first half touting something "special" with Carney would the be 1-17-70, and the last half spliced in from the 1969 episode which features Frank Gorshin and Max Bygraves.

Now, why is that? Well, it is all speculation and I, for one, do not believe the "it was so awful Gleason cut it to protect Carney's reputation," and so on. What I do believe is that, having traded, bought and sold a few collector prints of various films, and having owned (and still do!) a few obscure homebrew telecine copies of third and fourth-hand films, it could be:

a) A Mistake. Simply, when cobbling together a full-length program to dupe for armed forces, personal archiving, or overseas sales, mis-matched elements were used. Hell, I got a couple of 16mm Stooges film prints that have The End titles spliced in from the wrong eras, and even some of those Screen Gems logo plastered hack jobs (a widescreen era Columbia Pictures logo, tacked on one!).

b) A rights issue. Quite often, for unspecified reasons (usually involving $$) authors may choose to not allow programs to be shown, sold, traded or otherwise. It happens, and it could have happened when JG's folks were making these film copies.

c) Lost elements. Broken or ruined footage may have been replaced. Or, with so few copies in circulation, someone may have taken a shine to that particular footage, hoping to retire upon its later "discovery" and subsequent sale to the right person. So they put in something else laying around to fill time. This kind of cut and paste leads to the next possibility:

d) Hoarding. This happens too often in the film collectors' circles. One gets hold of rare footage and is scared to let anyone near it for fear of devaluing the material. Best examples I know of are things like the Three Stooges Cartoon/live action combo films "Stooges Scrapbook" and "The Spain Mutiny". People have them but will not share, sell or allow viewing. 2 people have also claimed in the last 12 years to have superior 16mm copies of the Stooges' swansong "Kook's Tour" but allegedly could not agree on a ransom price.

I would guess it is a combination of A and D, with someone subbing in some footage and selling the print as is. I'd bet somewhere long ago, someone knew they had something rare and cannibalized the footage. The kinescope ends with Johnny Olsen reminding you to tune in to the Honeymooners next week, and it has the Bressler/Duddy song credit which hints at it maybe coming from another Honeymooners episode, which would be incorrect, as well, and flown in from separate elements

AND, the print just runs out as broken film. Poof. Proving (?) that the elements were kinda iffy anyway.

Frustrating, but there you have it.

The search continues!