OK, I missed that detail in your original proposal, and my comment applied mainly to those responding to it.
So who specifically are you insulting? It would be nice to know who is considered intellectually lazy to a disturbing degree. I personally consider myself intellectually challenged, but not really disturbing or lazy.
PfD, it's not you, it's me. I too am intellectually challenged, but I can also be lazy. And I confess, I have disturbed others in the past. But I solider on, nonetheless.
I think I posted Zhang's recent results in this thread. Anyway, today he reported more experiments. He works fast! Someone suggested he try "thermoacoustic" stimulation. Which is what it sounds like, but don't ask me. Anyway, he tried that, in record time. It ran for a while with 300 W input, then 200 W, then it began to produce 1 W excess, and it edged up to 2 W. Here is the graph:
My criticism referred to the overall progress (or lack thereof) in the conversation. I said "There's a general tendency to confuse temperature with power". Power refers to both the electric input to the heater, and the heat and other forms of power coming out of the device. The most basic tenet of thermodynamics is that at equilibrium those two should be equal. Equilibrium means that neither the input power nor the measured output power should change over the measurement interval.
Practical thermodynamics further informs us that at equilibrium the measured output power will always be less than the input power, unless an additional source (chemical, LENR etc.) has been overlooked.
Understanding and applying these basic definitions is where any discussion should start.
Finally, in the case of LENR we are searching for that additional source of power, detected as "excess heat". For any such success to be convincing, the measurement technique must be proven by repeated calibrations, with limits of measurement accuracy determined and documented as part of the calibration process. Repeatability is more important than absolute accuracy, and a calibration constant is often used to account for small unmeasured output paths.
My criticism referred to the overall progress (or lack thereof) in the conversation. I said "There's a general tendency to confuse temperature with power".
Yup! The two are often confused.
Also, some people confuse power with energy. And some confuse high power with energy beyond the limits of chemistry, for example by claiming that if a cathode is not hot enough to scorch wood, it cannot be producing nuclear energy beyond the limits of chemistry. Even some professional scientists are confused about these issues. See p. 6:
I'm using the following grit size conversion chart for the sandpaper for use on the nickel mesh in my Mizuno replication experiment.
http://www.hocktools.com/temp/15hGritChart.pdf
Mizuno lists this in the supplemental:
Silicon Carbide Wet-Dry Abrasive: grits: 500CC, 800CC, 1200CC, 1500CC.
Note the "CC"
here is the supplemental:
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTsupplement.pdf
here is a japanese manufacturer that uses "CC" but I gather that just relates to water resistance and it is usable for hand sanding etc.
https://www.nihonkenshi.co.jp/english/product/sheet.html
According to the conversion chart (hocktools link at top of this message) it can be seen that 1500 grit in Japan is equivalent to 950 grit in American units (ANSI/CAMI). And 500 grit in Japan is equivalent to 380 grit in American units.
Thoughts?
I've been using 3M paper in 400, 800, 1000 grit, under running water in a sink. Seems to work OK.
Hopefully we can get back to the science soon. Last week Mizuno got 800W's out, from 500 in, and Zhang is still reporting excess heat almost weekly.
As you say "hopefully".. I have heard this so many times before though, it is starting to be difficult to hold that hope. Rumors and non-published reports do little to excite me anymore.
I understand that some ventures will keep quiet. That is not unusual. I would never hear of them at all. However, the continual leaking of "successes" from some kind of goes against that line of thinking.
Muzuno's R19 COP and now this 500 -> 800 watt is high enough to quickly eliminate many minor measurement errors that often creep in that can give false COPs. However, Mizuno's history is troublesome in that these reactors should have been verified by third parties long ago and yet were disassembled or sent to people who did not follow up or.... who knows. Always some excuse it seems? I am not saying that Mizuno is like Rossi, but it is either management skill of this project is questionable or lack of knowledge how to bring some invention to market (some scientist will not have a clue how to do this) is evident. I.E. we know IH was interested in Mizuno's stuff, but he could not deliver when that opportunity knocked. This is concerning.
The invention of the century and one cannot get it reliably verified? Very troublesome indeed. I am not talking about replication. To hell with that at the moment. All we hear is excuses why it cannot be done anyway! Get someone to verify that the claimed results are real from the working reactor by the original researcher. Once that is done, I would expect all the money one needs would be rather easily gained. Crap, if Rossi can get 10 million with his fraud, how hard can it be for a legitimate researcher, allowing legitimate scientists / engineers to verify the results with their own measurements etc. ?
Then again, my memory well serves me that when this Mizuno break through was first announced, it was stated that experienced and knowledgeable researchers were then working on replications and that reports would be made public... positive or negative.... has not happened and are we not about two years into this?
(Yes, some will say two years is nothing and start the excuses again... I am not talking about replication... I am talking about getting claims verified which should not take but a few weeks at most)
If Mizuno is reporting 500->500 watts, I hope to heck that qualified people are there verifying measurement methods, procedures and equipment this time! I am not saying Mizuno is dishonest, just that anyone can be wrong at times. Hopefully not this time!
"I dunno"......
Display MoreAs you say "hopefully".. I have heard this so many times before though, it is starting to be difficult to hold that hope. Rumors and non-published reports do little to excite me anymore.
I understand that some ventures will keep quiet. That is not unusual. I would never hear of them at all. However, the continual leaking of "successes" from some kind of goes against that line of thinking.
Muzuno's R19 COP and now this 500 -> 800 watt is high enough to quickly eliminate many minor measurement errors that often creep in that can give false COPs. However, Mizuno's history is troublesome in that these reactors should have been verified by third parties long ago and yet were disassembled or sent to people who did not follow up or.... who knows. Always some excuse it seems? I am not saying that Mizuno is like Rossi, but it is either management skill of this project is questionable or lack of knowledge how to bring some invention to market (some scientist will not have a clue how to do this) is evident. I.E. we know IH was interested in Mizuno's stuff, but he could not deliver when that opportunity knocked. This is concerning.
The invention of the century and one cannot get it reliably verified? Very troublesome indeed. I am not talking about replication. To hell with that at the moment. All we hear is excuses why it cannot be done anyway! Get someone to verify that the claimed results are real from the working reactor by the original researcher. Once that is done, I would expect all the money one needs would be rather easily gained. Crap, if Rossi can get 10 million with his fraud, how hard can it be for a legitimate researcher, allowing legitimate scientists / engineers to verify the results with their own measurements etc. ?
Then again, my memory well serves me that when this Mizuno break through was first announced, it was stated that experienced and knowledgeable researchers were then working on replications and that reports would be made public... positive or negative.... has not happened and are we not about two years into this?
(Yes, some will say two years is nothing and start the excuses again... I am not talking about replication... I am talking about getting claims verified which should not take but a few weeks at most)
If Mizuno is reporting 500->500 watts, I hope to heck that qualified people are there verifying measurement methods, procedures and equipment this time! I am not saying Mizuno is dishonest, just that anyone can be wrong at times. Hopefully not this time!
"I dunno"......
A X-Y plot of all steady state delta T vs input powers and another one of steady state delta T vs output powers could do a great deal of understanding what is going on with the Mizuno work, IMO. Excess (or experiment) in one color of dots, and Calibration in another color should be enough processing.
Well said as always. All I can say in defense is that they are very busy trying to make all the things you say happen. Mizuno has been as transparent as anyone in the field before him. Unanticipated things keep getting in the way of a quick resolution though; earthquake destroying his lab, wife with cancer, old age, COVID, the successful replications taking longer than anticipated, and the excess seen not as robust. Investment money not coming in as fast as hoped, and when it comes...conditioned on maintaining IP. They are as frustrated as you.
Wish I could add more.
I think the focus on replication needs to be shelved at present. As stated, verification of the researcher's own tests and measurements are all that is needed at present, and I do not think IP would be an issue.
It appears Mizuno needs to get some experienced and reputable people in his lab, check his testing equipment and measurements and verify nothing is awry or missed. If this happens and the visitors write up a good report with actual data (such as Para mentions above) then I believe A) getting funds will not be an issue B) getting serious replicators will not be an issue C) Mizuno will be on his way to a Nobel!
If qualified people are indeed verifying Mizuno's data, then why cannot this be published? This would not reveal IP (unlikely) and would go a long ways in solidifying the dependability of the claims. True, Mizuno did release data, but there were some valid questions. Answers did not seem to be available. Raw data would have certainly helped.
I believe we have a very capable and experienced researcher here in Magicsound. He could not get a replication to work, nor even get good answers to questions at times. This is not how to proceed in my opinion. If he were agreeable, I would suggest getting a GoFundMe project up to send him to Mizuno's lab and spend a few days verifying this 500-800w system, verifying the measurements and processes. He could then probably come back and have a successful replication within weeks IF Mizuno's system was truly operating as such and had any repeatability at all.
But for some reason, getting verification seems too simple yet does not seem to happen. We can still hope. Again, I call for putting replication aside for now and concentrate of verification of claimed test data.
Bob#2 A trip to Japan is neither possible nor appropriate for me given the current circumstances. I urge you to curb your impatience regarding replication. This stuff takes time!
As I've said before, the Mizuno experiment is deceptively difficult, due to the several factors discussed in this thread. I'm still dealing with the slow leak observed in my last calibration, expecting yet another new replacement valve in the next few days. Once that is installed, testing will resume. Refer to this Mizuno Replication thread for further details as and when available.
Actually Mizuno is doing everything in his power to get all this 'out there', many of the things you mention are in hand or already done. But please forgive him wanting to do it his way rather than your way, he has a lot on his plate right now.
He has a lot on his plate in his personal life, as Shane D. mentioned. Maybe with experiments and collaborations as well.
A trip to Japan is neither possible nor appropriate for me given the current circumstances.
It is not possible for anyone other than a Japanese citizen. Not even me. See:
http://www.moj.go.jp/content/001316999.pdf
There is a sudden burst of cases there. I hope these are all coming from a few well-defined places, such as a few hospitals or nightclubs. I haven't seen the news about them yet.
See:
I enjoy reading all this Mizuno discussion, but is the Rossi thread the proper location?
I am very worried for Mizuno about problems like guilt by association with criminals, cross contamination, damaged reputation, accumulating followers from the Rossi cult...
Some news from the anti body side (Regeneron) . Phase 3! Hopefully no side effects.
https://newsroom.regeneron.com/node/24026/pdf
The source site of the news:
accumulating followers from the Rossi cult...
Cancer in a spouse overrides any fears of Rossi fixation
We do have a new report of 2 more successes in addition to Desireless. They are both Japanese companies, one getting COP1.5. With the lifting of restrictions, Mizuno and his team have become very active. They arranged for Zhang to work with one of the European replicators. 10 reactors are being readied to ship for others to use, including one for our Alan S. Commendable considering Mizuno's wife is being treated for cancer.
Things are moving again thank goodness. If Magic sees signs of LENR, I think that could stir the field up, and many more serious replicators will jump on the bandwagon.
Edited to be more accurate.
Shane D. - Can you give us an update on replication efforts? It has been 6 weeks since we heard.
Who are the "2 more successes" ?
Is Desireless's replication legitimate?
What about these two Japanese companies?
What about that company working with Mizuno who posted an outdated picture and wants investors?
Zhang? European replicators?
10 reactors shipped to others including Alan S.?
Magicsound?
Display MoreShane D. - Can you give us an update on replication efforts? It has been 6 weeks since we heard.
Who are the "2 more successes" ?
Is Desireless's replication legitimate?
What about these two Japanese companies?
What about that company working with Mizuno who posted an outdated picture and wants investors?
Zhang? European replicators?
10 reactors shipped to others including Alan S.?
Magicsound?
We were updated, but unfortunately can not pass it along yet. Sorry.
As to Desireless, all we can say is that he is the original me356 , who morphed into @JohnyFive . So that no one would get confused, we blocked the pseudonyms, but 356 is still a member here in good standing. He is free to post.
You can still read all the relevant threads, and decide for yourself the legitimacy of his latest replication attempt.
For the past month, I've been struggling to reduce the slow leakage of outside air into the reactor. This was first seen in calibration and testing of MR2. After replacing most of the parts in the system, I've concluded that the leak must be from the KF flange where the capacitance pressure gauge is mounted. These fittings with a viton o-ring and are widely used in vacuum systems down to E-8 torr. The issue here is leakage rate rather than base vacuum, and the KF spec for leakage is typically 1.0E-9 mbar-l/sec. That is two orders of magnitude worse than the Conflat fittings used elsewhere in my setup. The attached chart shows the result of a series of long-term tests I did with a variety of different gauges attached directly to the vacuum system T and valve. The leakage measured of around 6 Pa/hr into 30 cc of enclosed volume seems to be of the right magnitude for the KF16 seal to be the source of leakage.
Because of the low hydrogen pressure (300 Pa) of the Mizuno protocol, and the small volume (300 cc) of my reactor, this amount of leakage is not acceptable for a test meant to last days or weeks. Therefore, I have to replace the capacitance gauge and its mount with a part using a VCR (metal face seal) fitting. This has been a painful lesson in vacuum engineering, and I hope my experience will help other replicators avoid the mistake I initially made. The chart also shows that my first Baratron capacitance gauge was damaged by over-pressure (3 bar absolute) during leak testing with hydrogen. Won't do that again!
I've had good luck with these KF valves:
https://www.idealvac.com/Ideal…ws-Angle-Valve/pp/P103784
$261 for a 25 mm KF flange, 90 degree angle valve ($299 for a straight inline valve)
and the full rebuild kit is about $150 (I have not had to rebuild the valve and its been through, I would guess, 200+ open /close cycles).
They use orings for sealing - it is a clamping type seal when the handle is fully turned (i.e. *no* sliding orings which would fail quickly). There is a bellows involved but they design it so that the oring does not slide along a surface. It just clamps over a hole. I use it on the roughing vacuum side of my system (not the high vacuum side).
I use swagelok SS-DSV51 on the high vacuum side, $250:
https://www.swagelok.com/en/ca…duct/Detail?part=SS-DSV51
(note: only tighten the nut on the stainless steel seals 1/4 turn as indicated in the instructions)
I have a larger volume, about 2.5 liters. I see a lot of outgassing at high temperature which is partially solved by running at high temperature with the turbo vac pump on for 24 hours to get rid of the majority of it. My plan is to live with the remaining outgassing (about 100 to 200 Pa per day at 300 C) and just evacuate the contaminated gas each day using the roughing pump and add fresh D2 gas when I get to the point of running with the mesh installed.
For the past month, I've been struggling to reduce the slow leakage of outside air into the reactor.
Isn't that annoying! That's where a lot of experiments run aground.
